Bagstr 288 Posted October 18, 2009 What is wrong with this picture? Edited 10-21-09 No, it's not my riding partners! It would appear to be this. I rode Doug's 450 briefly Saturday and immediately felt the influence of the increased trail on the front forks. To me that translates to a higher comfort level when steering through the soft stuff. In addition the riding height, or seat height of my 690 seemed higher than the 450. That's weird because he has more suspension travel and the book spec call out a higher seat height. Mine has the Renazco, but it can't add more than 1/2". Maybe the 450 is set up with more rear wheel sag. So, I now have a project. Just what we all need to keep us away from the TV! The R has an adjustable steering head angle. (Edit: this is incorrect, just offset) After washing off yesterday's dust, Off with it's Head!! Steering head, that is. I sit here hoping the bike was delivered with the eccentric cam set to the steep position.(Edit: there is only one angle, 63 degrees) The top clamp is stamped 22-24. The Owner's Manual list the bike @ 63 degrees. Variables I know of: Steer Head angle, Triple Clamp offset, front axle position and front and rear sag. Anyway I'll pull it apart and hope to adjust more trail into the equation. Film @ 11:00. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bagstr 288 Posted October 18, 2009 OK, I am learning already. I think the steering stem is fixed @ 63d and the fork offset is the adjustable aspect. Looks like the adjustment is in the bottom clamp. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bagstr 288 Posted October 19, 2009 Later Edited 10-21-09 Which Handles Better in the Sand?? (Edit: You would be hard pressed to see a 2mm difference in Offset. I originally thought I could adjust the rake. Not with this equipment. Funny though, I kept looking at the before and after photos and sometimes thinking I could see a difference in Rake. Reversed Engineering Thought!) The Guts I had this mistaken idea that only the Top or the Bottom would adjust forward or backward. Wrong, Offset adjustment is parallel to the stem tube. In this case a parallel line 22 or 24mm (Edit: not degrees) in front of the frame stem tube. So I moved it 180 degrees . Do you think it will handle better or worse? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bikeslut 1 Posted October 19, 2009 I would guess slacker (head angle, not you) is better in the sand...less twitchy But I know steeper will be better on tight singletrack... Really boils down to riding preference...by the way...that is an awesome looking bike...really beautiful Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Crawdaddy 96 Posted October 19, 2009 Later......Do you think it will handle better or worse? I think you'll like the change in handling off road.......very cool that you're able to manipulate things...... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
paulmbowers 236 Posted October 19, 2009 Interesting. My eccentric is about 18" behind yours, attached to the hand grips. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bagstr 288 Posted October 19, 2009 Offset, Trail and Rake, Thinking about how offset affects handling inevitably leads to thinking of these other issues. My thoughts are that rake will not change from the Head tube angle, only the distance the triple clamps are offset forward of the steering stem. Trail, it would seem, would increase as you add offset. The factory setting appeared to be the larger offset, 24(d) Edit: mm. As I rotated the stem tube reference dot from rear to forward, the offset appeared to move to 22(d)mm. It struck me as funny that the reference dot on the top of the stem was nearer the rider when at the 24(d)mm Setting. People seem to like buying expensive Tripple Ts with less offset to sharpen handling. I am looking for more relaxed control of the bike in the mushy stuff. I have not test ridden the bike, but am expecting sharper steering because of less trail. I have read that some people "feel" like they have better control with less offset, I am hoping to be surprised. Otherwise I get to take it apart to return to the 24(d)mm setting. What do you think? Am I Offset in my analysis or merely eccentric. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bikeslut 1 Posted October 19, 2009 most of the world does not ride sand... they will get better feel in tight situations with a steeper angle high speed and sand (and freeway), you will get a more planted feel with a relaxed angle I see lots of people on twitchy bikes add steering dampers... maybe that is the best of both worlds... quick steering without being twitchy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christi20 0 Posted October 19, 2009 Most previous years bikes were adjustable from 18mm to 20mm (not EXC's though). So, what year is your bike? My 2008 EXCR came with 20mm. I put our 18mm Applied Clamps on and it handles so much better everywhere. I love it. Not sure about yours though. I had heard that 09-10 models were supposed to have 22's. But, we have yet to see any. If this is a 2010, would you be interested in letting us (Applied Racing) take a look at your bike and maybe test some stuff? We were the first company to offer different offsets for bikes in 1991! Let me know. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SCHWINN 0 Posted October 19, 2009 I have been waiting for the results of this thread. You dont notice that the 690 has zero turning capability if you are on the street or having fun in the desert. At low speed like turning around in your driveway is a 3 point turn and up at Pinnacles in Arrowhead in a tough section that was a hard right while climbing their is a large step up rock face and I didnt have time or the steering left so I stuck my right foot down and popped a little wheelie and swung the bike and up the rock face while the whole time thinking this is going to get UGLY but made it. Looking back I think there was a 50 50 chance of dumping it. It looks like I will be employing or doing a maintanance day with bagster to fix this problem. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bikeslut 1 Posted October 19, 2009 Most previous years bikes were adjustable from 18mm to 20mm (not EXC's though). So, what year is your bike?My 2008 EXCR came with 20mm. I put our 18mm Applied Clamps on and it handles so much better everywhere. I love it. Not sure about yours though. I had heard that 09-10 models were supposed to have 22's. But, we have yet to see any. If this is a 2010, would you be interested in letting us (Applied Racing) take a look at your bike and maybe test some stuff? We were the first company to offer different offsets for bikes in 1991! Let me know. "Applied triple clamps" is often a selling point in a used motorcycle... The motorcycle companies set up the numbers for a reason, but it seems a LOT of people (and the mags support this) want to change the numbers... in fact, I have seen atricles (Honda 450, I think) where the offset is 24 one year; the mags say it turns sluggishly, then prescribe a 22mm Applied unit... next year's 450 comes out with a 22mm, and the mags say it is twitchy... and prescribe an Applied unit Sounds like some of the companies have made units that are adjustable, which is a step in the right direction... If I was faster, I might have a need for a different geometry, but for now, I'll make do... I still have not needed a damper at the speeds I ride. But, I'm a hack... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christi20 0 Posted October 19, 2009 Yeah, I hear ya. I know. But, we never trust magazines. In fact, often we dont' agree with them (magaine editors). We test as many offsets on a particular model as we feel we need to before we end up with what we think is the best. Or in some cases, we will have two different offsets for different types of riders. You just never know with each new model. Thats why we test! Doug Dubach is our main tester. But also some professional supercross teams. And of course, I get to throw my two cents in! Perks! For example, the 09 CRF was a brand new model. Everything changed on this bike from 2008. From 02-07 we had recommended 22mm offset. In 09, after testing 4 different offsets, we recommend the 24mm. These have been a big hit. What you are trying to achieve here is the perfect balance between straight line stability and the ability of the bike to fall into the corners perfectly and track well in those turns. You can't just assume that changing the offset one way or another will be better until you ride it! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bagstr 288 Posted October 20, 2009 Just back from a "Street" test ride. I dunno..not a massive change. Possible a little quicker turn in, but that could be just what I was expecting. Tough to interpret on the pavement. I won't really know anything until this weekend, when I can slide it around in the dirt. Christi, Are you aware this is a 690 Enduro R, 2009? Happy to let you play with the bike. I'm not shure what the goal would be as this is definitely Not a race bike. All I know is that when I ride a KTM450 or a Husky 510, there is a planted feel, as in more stable in the soft turns. I think my rake is steeper, which is not going to change unless I add more sag in the rear. The bike is soo much easier to ride offroad than the 990 that I'm shure I will adapt to it's personality. Schwinn, Happy to show what little I know. I suggest you pull the front fender and see if you have a 20mm aluminium screw at the bottom. The '08s may not have the adjustable setup. My top clamps are stamped 22-24mm on the top surface. This weekend should tell me more when I can get it crossed up. As it was, in the tight sandy turns, sliding the rear tire worked best to bring her around. That technique may not be applicable on an uphill rock face. Is there a football game on tonight? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dirt dame 561 Posted October 20, 2009 Is there a football game on tonight? As we post. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bagstr 288 Posted October 21, 2009 My posts have been edited to reflect the correct use of the terms degree and mm. My Offset clamps do not adjust rake (degrees) but only move from 22mm to 24mm offset. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Crawdaddy 96 Posted October 21, 2009 I was just looking over the specs on the WR250R vs. the WR250X - The 250R has a steering-head angle (at 26.7 degrees) slightly less steep than the 250X’s 25.3 degrees. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bikeslut 1 Posted October 21, 2009 My posts have been edited to reflect the correct use of the terms degree and mm. My Offset clamps do not adjust rake (degrees) but only move from 22mm to 24mm offset. I think we were "with you"... to change the rake, the eccentric would have to have been adjustable at a different offset top to bottom... THAT could've increased or decreased the rake. Craw- is that angle caused by the wheel size? That would make sense... and obviously, it would affect trail as well Christi- not sure how my post sounded, but I was illustrating what you said... the company (Honda) comes out with a certain offset. YOU guys find a BETTER offset, after a lot of development and testing... THEN Honda changes the offset, along with a bunch of other stuff on the bike, and the OLD offset would've worked better on the new bike. My point was that your company does a great job of testing triple clamps in real world situations, and improves on Honda specs. You guys rock! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bagstr 288 Posted October 21, 2009 I was just looking over the specs on the WR250R vs. the WR250X - The 250R has a steering-head angle (at 26.7 degrees) slightly less steep than the 250X's 25.3 degrees. That translates to 27 degrees on the 690. Published 63d subtracted from 90d = 27 degrees. A guy over @ AdvRider thinks the 22mm offset works great if you get the sag correct. Fun to play with! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bagstr 288 Posted October 26, 2009 Test Ride: To the Point - Feels better @ 22degrees. Schwinn, change your offset ( I'm happy to come up and offer assistance as you do the deed). Rode Mountain Two Track Sunday: Rocky slow stuff, little bit of soft sand (Oriflamme Mtn) and wide open soft Cedar Creek and Slick Track Boulder Creek. I did not feel less secure. Just easier turn-in. Thinking about it now, I was not using the rear break to square off the tight turns Sunday. Last weekend on Jasper, I was, all the time. That said, the constant deep sand of the Anza Borrego have not been tested. Eventually, I will change out the rear spring to a 90N/mm from the current 80N as my rear rider sag is 97mm vs the KTM spec of 70-80mm. This will lessen the fork angle and sharpen the front rake some. This also is leading to a fork dampener. Read today a narrative from Chris of Renazco on the benefits of the dampener. Less fatigue and help in the deep sand, in terms of deflection left and right. I could use help in the fatigue category. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
